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The OFFICIAL Unofficial Achewood Message Board  |  Trivial Pursuits  |  Arts & Entertainment (Moderators: slink, AugustWest, pmcd9)  |  Topic: American Sport 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: American Sport  (Read 2692 times)
Drygioni
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« Reply #15 on: February 06, 2010, 05:45:42 PM »

Judy, I think part of the problem is that on the surface soccer is set up in a very similar way to hockey. And while hockey is generally very low scoring (by our standards) there are still usually 5 or so goals per game. Plus there are fights. Thus according to a theory I just made up most prospective soccer fans in the US become hockey fans instead because it's like soccer but more exciting.

Interesting point, happily accepted.

That doesn't really explain what I am asking. Which is where the hell did it come from? How did someone think of it? Who was watching a bunch of drunken Englishmen beat each other up (Sorry Judy but that is my mental image of the sport) and said "That would be great for eight year olds"?  Is there one person who had this idea who we should hold responsible?

Well there's your problem. Football is, at heart, a game based around skill, intelligence and fitness as opposed to great speed and strength. Whilst some big fucker up front will always do well the best team in the world at the moment, Spain, are almost exclusively under 6ft and wee, dwarfed by the Swedish or Germans. But they play technically superb incisive football along the ground and hence beat nearly anyone (except the United States, as it turns out). It is not how you envisage it at all.

This is why it is good for kids. To re-iterate points above, while it is often a violent game (in the Liverpool game today two players pretty much got snapped ankles, lots of face kicks etc.) it is not supposed to be. I played this morning for my 6-a-side team safe in the knowledge I would likely not be nursing anything serious afterwards assuming both teams played fairly. We lost, but I got a very good work-out and many touches of the ball despite having a poor game by my standards. What better game for kids?

As LFM has stated, when it's a very basic level all you need is two goalposts and a ball. Whilst tactics are crucial to top-level football (more on that later) who really cares? Kids love to run around and indeed throughout Europe clubs encourage their youngsters to play free-roaming roles in a 6-a-side game as opposed to assigning them roles at such a young age, this how natural development and footballing intelligence is built. When it's for fun, any old dad can assume the mantle of coach assuming he has the most basic working knowledge of the game. It's perfect for kids and I can't comprehend how you assume it was some crazy idea to pitch it kids.

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Beyond that, I mean, there's not a lot of obvious strategy to it. You don't set up plays in the manner of a baseball pitcher or a basketball or football playbook. Maybe there... are for all I know... but nothing that's clear to an outside obverser

It is more simple on the surface than those sports; like you say, no plays, no overly complicated rules barring offside. Beyond keeper the same rules apply to every player. But...

Quote
. There's a ball, you try to either kick it into a net or kick it to your friend to kick it in the net or kick it away from the other dude trying to kick it into the net.

I hate this. Anything sounds stupid when you put it that way. Baseball: "The pitcher tries to strike out the batter. The batter tries to hit it in a place where the other team won't catch it". Pigskinball: "The quarterback attempts to throw it a player who is on a clear run or start a passing move. The defending team attempt to stop the attacking team from getting in positions to score". Did that infuriate you? Because that is what my flatmate just said when I asked him to describe the games. I and him both know there is 10x more to it than that but that's mostly what we see, like as you see football.

A quick lesson on footballing tactics.

Say you play a 4-4-2

Keeper
Right Back  Centre Back  Centre Back  Left Back

Right Winger  Centre Midfielder  Centre Midfielder  Left Winger

Striker Striker

At it's most basic, defenders would stay back. Midfielders would defend or attack based on the position of the ball and flow of the game. Strikers aim to score, rarely defending.

But.

You could have the left and right backs bombing forward on the overlap as opposed to staying back. Or they could move further into the field making the play narrower. One centre back could move the ball forward in possession whilst the other stays back. Both could stay tight on their marker or drop deeper to avoid being turned. One could even have free license to roam up the pitch. In which case you'd want one of your centre midfielders to drop back, making him the 'defensive midfielder'. The other centre midfielder could push forward forming a diamond shape, making an 'attacking midfielder'. Both could play deep, aiming to control the play. In which case the wingers would look to play further upfield right on the touchline and look for balls into the channels and stretch the opposition defence wide, making it vulnerable. Alternatively, they could play very narrowly, almost becoming centre midfielders. They could simply act as bodies on the wings and allow the play to concentrate for the middle, in which case a striker could sit back and provide a link in the midfield. Both strikers could do this in an attempt to control possession, or one could look for knock-ons for his pacy partner. They could drift wide allowing the wingers to attack through the middle. They could dribble with the ball or simply hold it up and look for the pass.

All these things, and I've missed out hundreds of other possibilities, will have been planned and practised before the game. But perhaps the beauty as well is that a player can use his own intuition here, doing what he feels is right for the situation. If a centre midfielder spots the right back far upfield and about to lose possession, he will often move into the space left to cover. Alternatively, he could leave it. It's all about familiarity and intelligence.

And that's before I even get onto different formations. 4-3-3, 4-5-1, 4-4-1-1, 3-5-2, 3-6-1, 4-2-3-1, 4-2-4, 5-3-2, 5-4-1, Barcelona's 4-1-2-3-1. You could play a flat back four playing for the offside or one sat deep to reduce the danger of through balls. You could counter-attack, looking to soak up pressure before launching it forward and catching your opponents off-guard; you could aim to control possession instead, making your way gradually up the field looking for an opening. There's literally thousands of variations on how to defend as a team, attack as a team, and thousands of ways of playing your own individual game. Right, the guy your marking is physically stronger and faster. Drop deep so that he can't turn you or play off your shoulder and hope to force him into a position uncomfortable for him. Playing attacking midfield and being marked tightly? You could drift deep, go wide or look to find space behind him. So many many many ways all of which are considered.

It is not a brainless sport at the highest level. Kids maybe but even if a player could dribble, shoot, pass, tackle, cross and head the ball better than any other player in the world it would mean fuck all if he didn't know where to run, when to run, who to mark, who to pass to at any given moment etc.

Football is less scientifically tactical than your 'plays' where every player has a concrete role he will not normally deviate from. There are formations, and there are instructions, but the real tactics lie in the mind of each player. Those culturally versed in top level football can see and appreciate it, understandably those who are not can't. But then I can't make head nor tail of your sports so I guess we're even.
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« Reply #16 on: February 06, 2010, 05:52:13 PM »

It's like throwing a superball into a small room as hard as you can while people scream in languages you can't quite identify.

There's a lot of action and yelling but after the shock of the cacophony, you start to realize that...

Nothing quantifiable is actually happening.

A series of frenetic bounces here and there, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.

Nah, you're just using your narrow frame of reference to spout irrelevant guessisms. Soccer is about beauty, simple as that, unquantifiable as that. Many a soccer fan has been know to profess the motto that they'd rather lose beautifully than win boringly. And a match that ends 0-0 can still provide many magic moments that don't end with a score. Soccer is about art, individual skill and beauty. It's about the thrill of following a superbly executed move, considering how fuck*ng difficult is to make that ball obey you (and it is very very difficult) Perhaps a cross-cultural analogy might help here:

Beauty in motion. The same thrill you'd get from Mr. Astaire moving effortlessly, you can get from following a certain player telling the ball exactly what to do. But you have to have an eye for that, and of course if your culture didn't provide you with the tools to appreciate something like that, it's a bit unfair maybe to expect you to understand this point. Maybe soccer is too subtle for you. But at least they taught you math, so you can compute scores, yay = )
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« Reply #17 on: February 06, 2010, 05:56:09 PM »

I really enjoy watching soccer and can't wait for the World Cup. I always thought I had a decent grasp on the rules and strategies of the game for someone who hasn't played it in an organized manner for nearly 20 years. That is, until I read Judy's post. Now I think I should probably take a class or two in it before the World Cup.
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« Reply #18 on: February 06, 2010, 06:02:58 PM »

Nah, you're just using your narrow frame of reference to spout irrelevant guessisms. Soccer is about beauty, simple as that, unquantifiable as that is. Many a soccer fan has been know to profess the motto that they'd rather lose beautifully than win boringly. And a match that ends 0-0 can still provide many magic moments that don't end with a score. Soccer is about art, individual skill and beauty. It's about the thrill of following a superbly executed move, considering how fuck*ng difficult is to make that ball obey you (and it is very very difficult) Perhaps a cross-cultural analogy might help here:

Beauty in motion. The same thrill you'd get from Mr. Astaire moving effortlessly, you can get from So you see, barking at the wrong tree again. Maybe soccer is too subtle for you.

Yeah, for all my guff about tactics, in reality they are a crucial part of the sport but irrelevant when it comes to understanding why it is so popular. Football IS a beautiful sport to watch. I would rather my team lost 1-0 playing free flowing football than grinded out a win they didn't deserve.

It is about the magic moments, when a player decides to do something with the ball that is unexpected or unusual and you can't help but laugh with delight. There is NOTHING better than a one-touch football move where every player takes small risks that pay off beautifully. It doesn't always work but it would be boring if players did the efficient thing all the time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6R_iYLca2gc That is one of the most beautiful goals ever scored. I won't say why, I want an American sports fan to see if they can see why I would find it beautiful.

I really enjoy watching soccer and can't wait for the World Cup. I always thought I had a decent grasp on the rules and strategies of the game for someone who hasn't played it in an organized manner for nearly 20 years. That is, until I read Judy's post. Now I think I should probably take a class or two in it before the World Cup.

To be honest, anything going that deep into tactics is over-analysing. As a fan, just enjoy watching it. Only managers need concern themselves with it.
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« Reply #19 on: February 06, 2010, 06:05:28 PM »

TL;DR: We dont like soccer because we were never schooled in the subtle beauty of the game... which is there, he promises.
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« Reply #20 on: February 06, 2010, 06:11:58 PM »

Are you Brazilian Dejavroom?

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But you have to have an eye for that, and of course if your culture didn't provide you with the tools to appreciate something like that, it's a bit unfair maybe to expect you to understand this point. Maybe soccer is too subtle for you. But at least they taught you math, so you can compute scores, yay = )

Have to say I don't consider this fair comment, I'd defend football to the death but I'd never accuse anyone who doesn't understand it of lacking an understanding of subtlety or whatever. I think at the end of the day we were brought up to appreciate it, they weren't, just as we weren't brought up appreciate baseball.

Though I enjoy playing rounders.
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« Reply #21 on: February 06, 2010, 06:14:13 PM »

Are you Brazilian Dejavroom?

Have to say I don't consider this fair comment, I'd defend football to the death but I'd never accuse anyone who doesn't understand it of lacking an understanding of subtlety or whatever. I think at the end of the day we were brought up to appreciate it, they weren't, just as we weren't brought up appreciate baseball.

Though I enjoy playing rounders.

That one comment was especially for LFM. I'm LFM-ing the argument a bit here >)

Yes, I'm Brazilian, and I don't even follow soccer, there's not much of a sports fan in me. But beautiful lances (as we call the moves) and goals thrill me to no end.
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« Reply #22 on: February 06, 2010, 07:13:49 PM »

It is about the magic moments, when a player decides to do something with the ball that is unexpected or unusual and you can't help but laugh with delight.

This. So many times this.

Basketball, to talk about an all-American sport, has this element, where collective cooperation doesn't need to smother individual brilliance (although it is way easier to control a ball with, you know, the parts of your body that were meant to hold and handle things. It's this that adds the extra thrill to soccer. That part of the body had no business trying to do what it's trying to do).
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« Reply #23 on: February 06, 2010, 07:34:53 PM »

I've thought of another reason why perhaps I don't like soccer.  Instant Replay.  In all of the top American Sports there are breaks in the action where you can get a second look at what just happened.  Soccer never stops so you can't do that.  I don't watch soccer so I don't know if this is entirely true, but I would guess if they showed an instant replay it would come at the expense of the live action.  Please correct me if I'm wrong on this.
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« Reply #24 on: February 06, 2010, 07:43:24 PM »

I've thought of another reason why perhaps I don't like soccer.  Instant Replay.  In all of the top American Sports there are breaks in the action where you can get a second look at what just happened.  Soccer never stops so you can't do that.  I don't watch soccer so I don't know if this is entirely true, but I would guess if they showed an instant replay it would come at the expense of the live action.  Please correct me if I'm wrong on this.

Replays are very frequent, pretty much every time a dead-ball situation occurs or if there's an injury they show what's happened. They'll continue the replay through live play if the situation isn't likely to lead to anything much worth viewing, like the goalkeeper running with it a bit waiting for an option to pass to.

If it's very frenetic then sometimes you have to wait for a replay but it's not too big a deal. You can always rewind it these days as well.
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« Reply #25 on: February 06, 2010, 07:55:57 PM »

I just sort of assumed that soccer went the pro-wrestling route with a split-screen replay.
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« Reply #26 on: February 07, 2010, 12:02:01 AM »

I play soccer a bit at uni but, well, it's no union is it?
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« Reply #27 on: February 07, 2010, 12:12:42 AM »

Nascar is so paranoid of missing any moment of the action packed left turning that they run replays and sometimes the commercials in a split screen. (Disclaimer: I have never watched Nascar, but had a roommate who did)
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« Reply #28 on: February 07, 2010, 03:22:04 AM »

As I said in the dream thread, I'm not a sports fan in the least, with the exception of hockey (about which I used to be rabid; less so now that I have two kids and no cable TV). But my elder brother played soccer from the time he was five until he graduated from college (he went to school on a soccer scholarship, actually), so I saw a lot of games as a kid. At 8 or 9, I had no concept of the strategy behind it, and we were in the bleachers, so there was no instant replay. But it was fascinating for the same reasons I like hockey: it doesn't stop.

The opposing team gains control of the ball? It doesn't stop.  Two defensemen collide? It doesn't stop. Someone gets a cleat to the nutsack and starts vomiting blood on the field? Send in a replacement; it doesn't stop.

Which is exactly what I hate about football, baseball, and the whole rest of the sporting world: too much standing around pontificating, not enough elbows in faces.

What we need more of is violence.
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« Reply #29 on: February 07, 2010, 03:27:24 AM »

What we need more of is violence.
What you need more of is rugby. More non-stop violence than the other sports.
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